Questions about rules

[MieVaan]

This sounds like a theoretical situation. When a home run is attempted, sometimes the defending team manages to put out a player who has started from first base and tries to run all the way to home, but I don't think there's time to deliver a pitch for the next batter before the home run is completed (especially if the ball has to be thrown to a baseman before that).

i think that it is not needed. Pitch is then just fault... but still fully theoretical. hard to believe that ball can be in homebase before batter is in B3 and batter has passed B2 before throw.

 

[Giovanni]

If the batter is advancing towards the 2nd base, for example, and the throw is coming there, but it is not caught for some reason (it is wide or it drops from the baseman's mitt), the batter cannot score a home run even though he subsequently reaches 3rd base safely; he just gets to third on his own hit. Of course, nothing is stopping him from running to home base, and he will score a run then.

No, home run always ends on 3rd base. I think this point is related to your first question. To score a home run, the player has to be past 2nd base before a throw to put him out is attempted.

Ok, good.

• I get it, so the batter must make a legal hit, then he must necessarily reach second base, until that moment the defense must not even try to eliminate him otherwise the batter could no longer score a Homerun (perhaps because the ball was hit too far and not immediately available otherwise why shouldn't they try to eliminate him?). Once past second base instead the defense could try to eliminate the batter in the path between 2B-3B, infact once past second base the attempt to eliminate him would not invalidate his Homerun, correct?
• "Usually only a player who has advanced past the second base on his own hit can score a home run, even though he advances partially during a throw." Why "Usually"?

No, only on some other batter's batting turn.

But the English manual, I don't know what the Finnish manual says about it, is very ambiguous.

1. The sentence says this: "The player may stay on third base and." That is, he states that he can stay (may stay) on 3B, it would have been more explicit to say: "the batter must stay on 3B", otherwise it seems like it's a possibility to stay on base.
2. The sentence says "try to score a double run by advancing to the home base on another play" but what does "on another play" mean? Does it mean "new legal hit" (the moment the ball is hit by the batter) or "new serve" (the moment the ball leaves the pitcher's hand)?

This sounds like a theoretical situation. When a home run is attempted, sometimes the defending team manages to put out a player who has started from first base and tries to run all the way to home, but I don't think there's time to deliver a pitch for the next batter before the home run is completed (especially if the ball has to be thrown to a baseman before that).

This is what you see every now and then, and it is done deliberately to avoid an out. Runner who has started from 1st base is approaching 3rd base and notices that he has no time to get home before the ball is thrown there, so he stops before the 3rd base, lets the home run batter reach the base first and then immediately steps into the base. This way a home run is scored and the player who started from 1st base stays on 3rd base and can score a run on a subsequent batter. The home run scorer walks back home and receives numerous pats on the back.

Some situations:

1. R1 (safety on 1B) starts to run > behind him the batter trying to score a homerun > R1 reaches 3B > shortly after the batter also arrives on 3B; so now we have: did the batter hit a homerun? But at the same time R1 lost the safety to 3B, right? So if R1 reached (forced to) home base he would score a run?
2. "If the player scoring a home run has taken over another runner, and that runner reaches the third base without being put out, the player who scored the home run may not stay on third but is not put out either; he is instead removed from the field." In this other case the batter would lose the safety on 3B but would simply be removed from the field (will he return at his next turn at bat?), so he could neither save himself at Homebase nor be put out by the fielders, correct? But at the same time the removed batter would not be able to score another run with the next hit, correct? He would only score the homerun and not another run?
3. "He gains the right-to-advance when the ball is controlled by a fielder on home base." R1 (safety on 1B) starts running > reaches 3B > batter, running for a homerun, also reaches 3B shortly after (scoring a homerun) > runner then tries for safety by running toward home base > fielder throws ball to home base to put R1 out > but R1 arrives just before the ball at home base. Now since the ball is at home base, will the batter who was at home base have the right to advance?
4. If a batter who has just reached 3B and so scored a homerun, were to walk out of 3B, what would be the penalties? Also could he be called out with the ball at home base by the fielders or by tag?

2. ADVANCING ON A CATCH
Question A. "37 § Advancing on a catch
A runner who advances on a catch play shall be ruled caught even if he reaches his destination base before the moment of the catch."
Any runner who tries and succeeds in reaching the next base, or any runner who is off base and has not yet reached the next base, if he or she does reach it, would both be captured runners, correct?
All this happens not only at the exact moment of the catch but in a wider timeframe.
Rule also says:
"The catch play begins at the moment of delivery"
So the timeframe of the catch runs from the moment the ball leaves the pitcher's hand until it is actually caught by a fielder.

1. Any runner who reaches a base in this timeframe (even before the actual catch) is automatically caught;
2. Any runner who is out of base must reach his next base and only then will be caught (otherwise he will be out);
3. If a runner has reached the base before the "catch" he is caught but what would happen if we had this situation: Ball leaves the pitcher's hand > R1 starts for 2B > reaches 2B > then tries to reach 3B too but while R1 is between 2B-3B the ball is caught, in this case what should R1 do? Would he already be captured or does he necessarily have to try to reach 3B as well, otherwise he could also be eliminated?

Question B. "An offensive player who was on a base at the moment of the catch regains his right-to-advance at moment the ball is controlled by a fielder on home base. A sneaking-off player can be put out."
If a runner has remained stationary at his base (where he has the safety) for the entire timeframe of the catch play (ball left in pitcher's hand until the actual "catch") he cannot advance again until the ball goes to home base, correct?

1. When the ball reaches home base, can he legally advance, so if he reaches his next base he will have safety there but he will not be captured, right?
2. What would happen if he still came out? Could the ref send him back to his base? Also, who does "sneaking-off player" refer to? Would it refer to the runner who remained on base? So if he were to leave without having the right to advance it could have two consequences: A. The umpire sends him back to starting base; B. Could he be put out by the fielders?
3. Once the runners are captured, how can they be freed?

New rules?
"Mikäli sisäpelaaja on irti pesästä kopinottohetkellä eikä etene, hänet voidaan turvattomana polttaa. Ellei näin toimita, haavoittuminen raukeaa seuraavaan syöttöön." VS "If a runner was caught off base but does not try to advance, he can be put out at the destination base or by tagging."

 

[Giovanni]

1. "Esimerkki: Ajolähtö, kaksi paloa. Lyöjä lyö viimeisellä lyönnillään maapallon polttolinjaan. Lyönnin jälkeen hän irtoaa noin kaksi metriä kotipesästä kenttäpuolelle.
Tulojärjestys: Lyöjä saapuu takaisin kotipesään, kolmoselta edennyt kotipesään, pallo kotipesään.
Ratkaisu: Kolmas palo syntyi, kun etenijäksi muuttunut lyöjä astui takaisin kotipesään."
These interpretations are not in the English manual: that is, if the batter, after three strikes, returns to home plate and there is a fielder there with the ball, is it automatically an out?

2. "leensä vain kolmostaipaleelle omalla lyönnillään ehtinyt etenijä voi tehdä kunniajuoksun, vaikka hän etenisikin osittain heiton aikana." = "Usually only a player who has advanced past the second base on his own hit can score a home run, even though he advances partially during a throw.". But what does this mean?

Unfortunately without you, and thank you, I will not be able to understand the rules of the game, the manual in Finnish, much more complete than the one in English, cannot be translated well with google, so if you can help me thank you very much. Otherwise thank you anyway and I apologize for my ignorance.

 

[MieVaan]

These interpretations are not in the English manual: that is, if the batter, after three strikes, returns to home plate and there is a fielder there with the ball, is it automatically an out?

I have difficulties to open english rule book but basically interpretations does not contain any new rules, they normally combine several rules togerther innuse case that is described.

Please take a look Finnish rule book rule 34§ Pesärikko (I assume that 33§ in English version). If batter has become runner he can not return home base. This has been here already at least once with video.

Nesting § 34 A forward player makes a nesting if he arrives at a nest without visiting the previous nest, including by a cage shot and a free trip. The player who made the nesting returns. A player who finally becomes the forward player returns to his home side as having made the nesting, unless he has reached a final solution before that.​

2. "leensä vain kolmostaipaleelle omalla lyönnillään ehtinyt etenijä voi tehdä kunniajuoksun, vaikka hän etenisikin osittain heiton aikana." = "Usually only a player who has advanced past the second base on his own hit can score a home run, even though he advances partially during a throw.". But what does this mean?

also this has been covered already at once I would say. I would say that it pretty much always, I can not remenber when I have last time seen that hit was not not home run even batter reach second base before throw and batter reach 3rd base legally.

and same applies that it was a home run even first throw came before batter reach second base.

but I will see limited number of games during the year.

 

[MieVaan]

Unfortunately without you, and thank you, I will not be able to understand the rules of the game, the manual in Finnish, much more complete than the one in English,

If this will help you I would say that if you study 2003 English rule book from start to end and back to start you know rules better than majority >> 90% of people on this site.

and in other way there has not been any major changes in rules 2003 vs current rule hook. Pretty much all answers to your question can be covered that English version. To follow baseball game and understand what and why happens on field that English version covers 99 % if not more of modern pesäpallo field situations.

if you target is to understand/know all rules of current pesäpallo rule book then I would say that this forum is wrong place. I am relatively sure that I have made number of mistakes and errors when I have been answering to you. If that is your use case you need to ask authorized translator to make translation for you.

 

[Giovanni]

If this will help you I would say that if you study 2003 English rule book from start to end and back to start you know rules better than majority >> 90% of people on this site.

and in other way there has not been any major changes in rules 2003 vs current rule hook. Pretty much all answers to your question can be covered that English version. To follow baseball game and understand what and why happens on field that English version covers 99 % if not more of modern pesäpallo field situations.

if you target is to understand/know all rules of current pesäpallo rule book then I would say that this forum is wrong place. I am relatively sure that I have made number of mistakes and errors when I have been answering to you. If that is your use case you need to ask authorized translator to make translation for you.

The point is I don't really understand what it means. Also could you please help me with my other questions?


Also a special question:
The batter (of the honor run) gets the right to run to home base as soon as the ball is in home base controlled by a fielder (Tuplajuoksua hän voi yrittää välittömästi, kun pallo on käynyt kotipesässä olevan ulkopelaajan hallussa.), ok? If the batter were to come out of 3B while the ball is already in home base, would he be out? Or would the fielder have to come out and come back with the ball in home base?
Thank you very much

 

[Giovanni]

Even in this interpretation, what does it say? If the batter, who has become a runner, returns to home base, is he automatically out?
"Tulkinnat
Lyöjä muuttuu lopullisesti etenijäksi saatuaan kolme oikeaa syöttöä.
Esimerkki: Ajolähtö, kaksi paloa. Lyöjä lyö viimeisellä lyönnillään maapallon polttolinjaan. Lyönnin jälkeen hän irtoaa noin kaksi metriä kotipesästä kenttäpuolelle.
Tulojärjestys: Lyöjä saapuu takaisin kotipesään, kolmoselta edennyt kotipesään, pallo kotipesään.
Ratkaisu: Kolmas palo syntyi, kun etenijäksi muuttunut lyöjä astui takaisin kotipesään.
Ei juoksua vaan vuoronvaihto."

And this? One point of penality? What?
"Mikäli pelaaja oikaisee kotiin juostessaan kiertoviitan, hän palaa ja lisäksi pelaajalle
annetaan 1 pisteen varoitus"
and:
"Tulkinnat
Edetessään kolmoselta kotiin etenijä ei saa oikaista kiertoviittaa. Vaikka etenijä epähuomiossa ohittaisi kiertoviitan ja kääntyisi takaisin kiertämään sen, hän palaa ”ensimmäisestä oikaisusta” ja hänelle tuomitaan yhden pisteen varoitus.
– Palo vihelletään heti oikaisun tapahduttua, jos kentällä ei ole muita aktiivisia etenijöitä.
– Mikäli samanaikaisesti etenee muitakin etenijöitä, pelituomari osoittaa oikaisijaa koko ajan kädellään palon merkiksi ja viheltää palon vasta etenijöiden päästyä päätepesilleen."

 

[Syöksykoppari]

@Giovanni What are you trying to actually achieve here? As other have commented, if you already know the rules that have been gone through, you'll understand more than almost anyone on this forum. And now we seem to be in cases, which no spectator really needs to know and which are like "do you remember that one time 20 years ago when that strange thing happened".

Even in this interpretation, what does it say? If the batter, who has become a runner, returns to home base, is he automatically out?

Yes, the instant that they touch home base, regardless of anything else happening.

And this? One point of penality? What?
"Mikäli pelaaja oikaisee kotiin juostessaan kiertoviitan, hän palaa ja lisäksi pelaajalle
annetaan 1 pisteen varoitus"

If the runner coming home from 3rd base cuts the corner flag on the base path (meaning running a shorter distance), the runner is out and he gets a yellow card (one-point warning).

 

[Giovanni]

Ok, I try.
let's go in order.
3. ADVANCING ON A CATCH
Question A. "37 § Advancing on a catch
A runner who advances on a catch play shall be ruled caught even if he reaches his destination base before the moment of the catch."
Any runner who tries and succeeds in reaching the next base, or any runner who is off base and has not yet reached the next base, if he or she does reach it, would both be captured runners, correct?
All this happens not only at the exact moment of the catch but in a wider timeframe.
Rule also says:
"The catch play begins at the moment of delivery"
So the timeframe of the catch runs from the moment the ball leaves the pitcher's hand until it is actually caught by a fielder.

1. Any runner who reaches a base in this timeframe (even before the actual catch) is automatically caught;
2. Any runner who is out of base must reach his next base and only then will be caught (otherwise he will be out);
3. If a runner has reached the base before the "catch" he is caught but what would happen if we had this situation: Ball leaves the pitcher's hand > R1 starts for 2B > reaches 2B > then tries to reach 3B too but while R1 is between 2B-3B the ball is caught, in this case what should R1 do? Would he already be captured or does he necessarily have to try to reach 3B as well, otherwise he could also be eliminated?

Question B. "An offensive player who was on a base at the moment of the catch regains his right-to-advance at moment the ball is controlled by a fielder on home base. A sneaking-off player can be put out."
If a runner has remained stationary at his base (where he has the safety) for the entire timeframe of the catch play (ball left in pitcher's hand until the actual "catch") he cannot advance again until the ball goes to home base, correct?

1. When the ball reaches home base, can he legally advance, so if he reaches his next base he will have safety there but he will not be captured, right?
2. What would happen if he still came out? Could the ref send him back to his base? Also, who does "sneaking-off player" refer to? Would it refer to the runner who remained on base? So if he were to leave without having the right to advance it could have two consequences: A. The umpire sends him back to starting base; B. Could he be put out by the fielders?